Surname Saturday - Kirwans of Borris, County Carlow, and the DNA pile up regions

AncestryDNA has a very large database, second only to 23andme which is why I finally tested my own genome there in 2104, kicking and screaming the whole way. 

I received my results back Easter weekend and was very pleasantly surprised to identify a known Carrow descendant, and her brother as my 4th cousin. At some point I realized I had cousins in this database who  shared my Kirwan/Sweeny line. 

There were other matches, not surprisingly, since I had at that point more than 11,500 matches.Eventually that amount topped out over 13,000 a ludicrous amount.A long anticipated and discussed "correction" of these matches, the majority of which were supposedly "IBS" or Identity by State was to happen late in 2014. IBD means we inherit genes from a parent and IBS essentially means  they could be not ancestral at all.

This correction when it occurred left me with 11% of the matches that I had 5 minutes before. This fact is known because Ancestry saved the whole big mess from before as a download. I was able to look and see that one Kirwan cousin was my match  #865 and his son #866 prior to the match. After the correction they moved up to #11 and #14 and jumped into my field of vision.

Other persons moved down  in hierarchy ( if there is a hierarchy based on relatedness) and  of course 89% of those matches disappeared. I sadly waved goodbye to some small Carrow matches and a few Fant from Virginia matches, who I never felt could be real anyway. My Kirwan  3rd cousin with a known ancestral ties to me moved from #24 to #57 and he tells me that I was once quite high on his list and now #27. He is still my third cousin of course but it is important to look at all changes and try to understand them.

AncestryDNA's white paper discusses ancestral "pile ups" and as an attempt to visualize them I went into Gedmatch today and posted the result of MATCHES ABOVE IN BLUE. Some of it I do see here or what I think it is because one of my Kirwan cousins is on here in an area begun and dominated by my Faunt cousin Francis. Odd as I do know that these cousins do not share my Limerick Faunts or my Donegal Dugans with me. 

I am concluding at his moment that some of these segments are as a result of very very old DNA from Ireland, surely an example of "by state", in this case the SNPs are pointing to a shared ancestral region shared by many. I also realize that this is not an accurate representation of "pile ups" but since Gedmatch came up today I took a peek at the segments I was questioning.

AncestryDNA does not yet market their product in the UK so it is possible their algorithm has excluded or included certain ancestral populations or is skewed in some other fashion not yet clear to me. 23andme has begin their UK and Canadian marketing push and they will incorporate some of the "nodes" of ancestral couple in their collaboration with My Heritage which has begin it's work.

Church Record Sunday - Parochial Registers of Borris Carlow ~ Kirwans and DNA ancestors

       

Apparently a few years ago a cousin contacted me whose ancestor Anna Kirwan Downey was sister to my Great Grandmother Sadie Kirwan Carrow. Sadie and Annie were daughters of Patrick Kirwan and Lizzie Sweeney. The Sweeny/Huey line is well documented in NJ and Leckpatrick Tyrone.

This 3rd cousin turned up on my AncestryDNA 2 months ago and also matches another person who is a 3rd cousin. Our common ancestral segment can be seen below on Chromosome #13. Cousin #3 has no known Kirwans or Sweeneys but her ancestry is known to her and is recent.She and I are the large 51.6 cm and the smaller 8 cM .

Enter Cousins 4 and 5 a week or so ago also at AncestryDNA. Well Cousins 4 and 5 were THERE prior to AncestryDNA's refinement as # 865 and #866...What?? After the refinement they now comfortably rest at #s 11 and 14 and are father and son.    

Chr	Start Location	End Location	Centimorgans (cM)	SNPs
13	18201482	30273581	26.4	1808

  

11	75658173	100268196	22.4	6279
13	17956717	28043323	21.5	3087

                                                   

13	17956717	46594587	51.6	8432
20	41630837	45868746	8.0	1295

Cousins 4 and 5 also descend from Kerwins with the given name of Sylvester which is found in my Kirwans. They have an ancestral area of Carlow. So John McDermot my friendly Irish researcher and I put our heads together, and with some other clues (Patrick's 2nd marriage to a girl from Borris Knockroe) finally, 8 years after the fact have found Patrick's birth.

As he always said in documents his parents were Michael Kirwan and Jane/Jenny Kelly and they married and had 5 ( at least ) children in Borris Carlow between 1843 and 1855. Here is Patrick's birth from Parochial records: 27 Mar 1853-Pat,  Mick Kirwan &  Jane Kelly  with sponsors James Hickey & Maria Kirwan Knockroe.

Wait!! Not only do we not find Sylvester Kirwan/Kerwin in this happy little group but the DNA looks like what I am showing below so does not match with what the other 3 inherited.

Chr	Start Location	End Location	Centimorgans (cM)	SNPs
7	1269965	16882053	27.3	4704

Chr	Start Location	End Location	Centimorgans (cM)	SNPs
3	153404064	196304359	55.9	8697
11	104582818	120309501	19.1	4052

Directly above is Cousin 3 with cousin 5, Cousin 2 with Cousin 5 is right below that  I have a Chromosome # 10 match of 29cM with Cousin #5( Not shown)  ..Who only in the last week had moved up at AncestryDNA from # 865 to  projected Cousin #11 in my Top 25 cousins.

Thankfully, Cousin 2 has now tested at my urging at 23andme and moved his Ancestry results into FTDNA and Gedmatch and cousins 3,4 and 5 are at Gedmatch and FTDNA where these results are from. 

My moral here is that despite BIG matches and common geographic locations we do not always know our DNA ancestors for sure, although we see that we are related. 

Thanks to an informative series of posts this weekend at ISOGG and with some insight from an abstract posted by Debbie Kennett, I am realizing that  I have miles to go before we solve this mystery. The abstract had to do with how many genetic relatives we might have in common and all of these cousins seem to share more than one other family with me and each other. How many? It remains to be seen.

Sunday's Obituary- Virginia, African-American Funeral Programs 1920-2009

                 My Grandson's elusive Tappahannock Virginia family was discovered  here:
                           Virginia, African-American Funeral Programs, 1920-2009
                                                               FamilySearch.org

Wordless Wednesday - Patrick Kirwan,Lizzie Sweeney and/or their parents

Utilizing DNA involves choosing a company that has tools to use. These colors represent DNA that 3 persons and myself received from a common ancestor to me. This Person does not match This Person however. This Person and MYSELF match all of them.

Treasure Trove Thursday - 1821 Irish Census Fragment - Brady in Cavan and Meath

What I am wondering is if I am making myself confused, or did all of the Bradys and Kirwans in my line leave for America from this area. Is it the same area really though? Census fragments only show part  of it apparently.

There are two Sylvester Bradys living in Cavan or Meath at this time and are they the same family.

Sylvester Brady is a policeman and marries a Bridget Hood( or Flood) Jan 1, 1859 in Bohermeen Meath, near Navan where I think this Sylvester dies.

Another Sylvester Brady marries Rose Cook in Mt.Nugent( per the record) or Mountnugent in 1846. This is in Cavan and Meath, or at least the village is in Meath and  not too distant from Butlers Bridge where my rleated Bradys came from.

I also found this  in a public Tree of descendants of the second Sylvester Brady which makes me wonder if this is  my family also:
" The pages that she made are glued into a bible that came across on a sailing ship which left Waterford in 1866 in the possession of Maria (spoken "Mariah") then 14 years old.  According to four originally blank pages in that bible which evidently were meant to record things like births and deaths, etc., and preceding those that my grandmother glued into that bible, was documentation written by the parish priest of Kilbride Parish in Mt. Nugent (because he was the only one that could read or write given the English Penal Laws on the Irish Catholics at that time); it states that seven of the ten children were going to go to America on a sailing ship and only three sons, Timatay, Edward and John, were to stay in Mt. Nugent to tend to their home and parents on the "Tonagh land" in Mt. Nugent. "

Census Sunday - Friends of Friends From the Delaware Archives

Although not exactly from the census but records, for sure, I discovered the Collections Gateway from the Delaware Public Archives. Searchable and downloadable for a lot of indexes, this one was Apprentice Indentures. I looked up my Carrows and found who was apprenticed to who and found Timothy Carrow apprenticing  two females for household servants.Emily Wright, who I find in the census as  Eunity Wright  and Sarah Elizabeth Duff.

I want to note that these indentures did not note race. Carrows who were not of color were indentured also as it was how life training took place. One Carrow man, Goldsmith Day Carrow who in later years was  a prominent minister and missionary in his youth was apprenticed as a tailor. In using this index I was able to look into the past for several lines of my own family.


Eunity Wright is found in the household of Timothy Carrow in 1867 as a 3 year old and is described as white but I later find her listed as black. The Apprentice record calls her Emily but I think this is her. She is apprenticed for 15 years on 6 Feb 1869. In 1800 at 14 she and a Renatta Clarkson, same age, were living in Little Creek Delaware in the household of  Benjamin Hamm. In the 1900 census, on June 5th, she is in the household of Sallie Morris and it is stated she is a widow and mother of 2 children not living. 6 Dec 1901 she marries James H. Collins, 45, of Leipsic who is son of John Collins and Lidia.  Eunity Collins dies  21 Jul 1905 in Dover. I do not find James Collins after that, although he had a large family of origin with brothers Isaac H.,Albert, William and John and sisters Hannah and Elizabeth.

Sarah Elizabeth Duff was born in 1828, and was apprenticed to Timothy Carrow on 5 Nov 1841 for 4 years. In the 1850 Duck Creek Hundred census she is living with her mother Priscilla, 50, who is then married to  a Robert Temple, 55, as well as a Josiah Temple who is 5 and  Abritta Morris, 8, who may be her sister and a one year old George Stewart, listed as mulatto, who is her son.

Elizabeth Duff marries James Hazzard 23 Jan 1851.She names her second daughter Priscilla so I am assuming her mother is Priscilla Temple. In the 1860 census her children are listed as Priscilla, George,Elizabeth and Shepherd Hazzard. 1870 finds James and Elizabeth Hazzard living in Philadelphia with Frank Hazzard 3, and William ( is this Shepherd?) in the home of a Doctor David Right. James dies  27 Dec 1872  and is buried in Lebanon Cemetery in Philadelphia.

Someone from the Crippen Dicks family has made corrections to  Abritta Morris' name. Since both of these girls were apprenticed to Timothy Carrow of Duck Creek Hundred and Eunity collins lives with Sallie Morris in 1900, I suspect these 2 may be connected in some fashion.

James Morris later marries Sarah E. Davis on June 7, 1883, daughter of Perry and Molesa/Molena Davis  and states that his parents are George and Aberella(Abritta). In 1930 he is widowed and living with his mother and a Anna E. Reading in Smyrna.

Treasure Chest Thursday - Maryland State Archives: St. Mary's County Career Files

Since it is necessary to see where the Carrows lived before appearing in North Carolina in 1695 and Dorchester and Queen Ann  Maryland around 1700, Evan remains important. He is Deputy Sheriff in Accomac Virginia in July 1667, when he is first found and must then indenture to Mark Cordea for his transportation to Maryland. At one point I found him in Queen Ann in 1682, possibly as Juror.

Also appearing in Accomac records in  August  1667 is Rowland who is transported by Thomas Miller, who also got headrights for Morgan Aprice,Edgar Jones,Mary Morgan, John Welsh and Eliza Wilkins.

Wordless Wednesday ( Almost) ~ Autosomal Cousin Match at 23andme

Female

2.76% DNA shared across 8 segments

---

Predicted Relationship

2nd Cousin 

Friday Places From the Past - Western Northern Liberties, Philadelphia in 1799 and Henry Norbeck

My 6th Great Grandfather Henry Norbeck was a  Nailer living in West Northern Liberties at his death in 1799. In 1798 his home was described for tax purposes as being a two story brick structure  16 x 18 feet and with a 10 x 14 one story separate kitchen. 

He lived on North 2nd Street which at that time was at the TOP of the map. He may have come from Norway to Rotterdam where he sailed at the same time as the Palatinates. His daughter Mary Dorothy married John Hunneker/Honaker and their daughter Catherine married the son of Peter Rementer/Regimenter.

Peter Rementer, John Hunneker and Henry Norbeck all were proven by me as Revolutionary War Patriots in the Daughters of the American Revolution. The DAR chose Honaker as the spelling they recognize.

Those Places Thursday ~ Old Somerset Maryland, Hyde County North Carolina and my cousin Danny's DNA

                 Ann Ffrowan, Edward Sermon, Alexander Mitchell in Old Somerset Maryland


1653, Mar 4 - William Coulborne issued 350 acre patent in Northampton County at head of Nassawadox Creek bounded on west by land of Nich: Waddelow for transporting Edward Sermoner

1662  "The Deposicon of Edward Shearman aged 24 yeares or thereabouts Sworne and sayth that when Mr Randall Revell had taken the Sloope Shallop and small Boate that was with Capt John Savage att Marie Creeke and Tradeing with the Indians the sd Mr Revell Comitted the Charge and Care of the Sloope vnto me with what was in her and the Charge of the Shallop vnto John Markeham with order that nothing should be imbezelled or disposed of without his order"

Sometime after these legal documents were taken, Ann Frowin or Frewin met Edward Sermoner or Sirmon in  Virginia or Maryland. Ann and two siblings, Merrian and Andrew are in Accomac records around this time and Andrew dies in 1669.

Edward Sirmon and Ann Frewin  were married in 1664 by the same Randall Revell who was probably his employer. Their oldest son Thomas was born in 1663 and also Edward and Peter before Edward's death . His will was proved 10 January 1676.

Alexander Mitchell immigrates into Maryland  in 1673 and  as Alexander Mitchellor is entitled to 50 acres in 1677. Ann Frewin Sirmon marries Alexander Mitchell(er) 14 November 1676. They have at least 4 children.

How my second cousin Danny come into this discussion is the interesting part. Danny and I  have Grandmothers, who were the lovely Swanson sisters of Beverly NJ, so that is how we are related. We always knew that, no DNA needed there as we played together when younger. Danny' s mother, however, is a Mitchell and a direct descendant of Ann Frewin Mitchell.

I was therefore quite surprised when  Danny 's DNA came up as a 5th cousin match to my most distant known Carrow cousin, whose roots are in North Carolina. Scratching my head, Dan and I came up with a few shared surnames that we shared on his maternal and my paternal side. Yes, that does sort of make us double cousins but that was not the whole story.

In my incessant search for ancestors I stumbled upon a largish DNA match shared between some people from Hyde County NC and Danny and my distant, but equally beloved, Carrow cousin. These surnames are there: Berry,Cuttrell,Rose,Gibbs,Murray and Sermon. All of these names are cousins to one another both in Somerset County Maryland and both Hyde and Beaufort County Maryland.

 This fact narrows the number of ancestors  or make many of us whose roots are in Colonial America have what is called  " pedigree collapse". Less great grandparents means that, unseen by many of us as we do not have everyone's maiden names, the same couples appear more than once in our lineage. This keeps the segments of DNA from recombining or changing as rapidly over time as it normally would. Ann Frewin Sermon Mitchell 's DNA is apparently still capable of drawing folks together as cousins.

Treasure Chest Thursday - Y DNA SNPS, Southern Baltic Haplotypes and other findings

One of my goals for the New Year was to break down the Carrow origin brick wall. It is beginning to crumble now, thanks to my attention to comparing Y lines as they have been tested at both 23andme and Family Tree DNA. This is the treasure chest that I am unlocking  this week, with a lot of help from more scientific folks than me.All of these lovely men testing has resulted in a plethora of results to tiptoe though and match with. BigY,Geno2,and other places to hunt SNPS and gather them.

Apparently both my Carrow and Rementer lines are part of the same haplotype called Southern Baltic Modal. What does that mean? Well for some of the Carrows it means that they descend from  a man who came out of the Ice Age area that was favorable to human life and found his way into the English Midlands.
He COULD have gone further south on the European Continent first and then went over. Was he Saxon or Danish? His descendants are found in the Danelaw areas. Could he have been from Wales? Possibly South Wales. We will continue to SNP test as new ones evolve.

Peter Rementer we know came from Europe with the Palatinate diaspora. He spoke German, was Catholic and from a military family, most probably, hence the Regimenter/Regimender surname that we find.Alsace has been mentioned and also Mainz in West Germany. He did not travel really far "After the Ice", as the saying goes.

I am very grateful for these new clues and for male Rementer and Carrow cousins who have accompanied me on this search. We are getting somewhere.

Follow Friday - Curia Regis - early Carrow findings

County Cornwall.

Place:  Westminster.

Date:  The day after Ascension, 16 Edward IV [24 May 1476].

Parties:  John Carowe, clerk, and William Stephyn', chaplain, querents, and Thomas Tregose and Annora, his wife, deforciants.

Property:  10 messuages, 4 tofts, 1 mill, 4 gardens, 200 acres of land, 20 acres of meadow, 40 acres of pasture and 40 acres of furze and heath in Kenegy Thomma, Kenegy Osbourne, Loscosek and Boscruke.

Action:  Plea of covenant.

Agreement:  Thomas and Annora have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of John, as those which John and William have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Annora to John and William and the heirs of John for ever.

Warranty:  Warranty.

For this:  John and William have granted to Thomas and Annora the tenements and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Thomas and Annora and the heirs of Annora, of the chief lords for ever.

County:  Cornwall. Devon. Somerset. Oxfordshire.

Place:  Westminster.

Date:  Two weeks from Easter, 1 Henry VI [18 April 1423].

Parties:  Nicholas, bishop of Bath, Edmund, bishop of Exeter, John Typtoft, knight, Thomas Carwe, knight, John Hals, John Juyn', Robert Longe, Roger Trewebody, Thomas Cokayn and John Lawer, querents, and Walter de Hungerford', knight, and Katherine, his wife, and William Talbot, knight, and Eleanor, his wife, deforciants.

Property:  The manors of Newelond', Parke, Hametethy, Trevigowe, Penhale, Hermena, Tresodran', Treflyghan, Nansyrgh', Dounant (or Donnant) and Rillaton' in the county of Cornwall and the manors of South'pole, Harleston', Wolmeston', Plymtre, Sutton' Lucy and Colewyll' and the advowson of the church of Depford' in the county of Devon and the manors of Wotton', Southcadbury, Maperton', Halton', Clopton' and Hatherley in the county of Somerset and the manor of Stoke Mulys in the county of Oxford.

County:  Buckinghamshire. 
Place:  Westminster. 
Date:  The day after Ascension, 21 Henry VII [22 May 1506]. And afterwards one week from Holy Trinity in the same year [14 June 1506]. 
Parties:  John Carowe, knight, and Edith, his wife, Robert Throgmerton', knight, William Mordaunt, William Gascoigne, Wistan (Wistanus) Broun', John Vynter and Robert Spencer, querents, and William Fetyplace and Elizabeth, his wife, deforciants. 
Property:  100 acres of land in Briddesthorn' otherwise called Bridesthorn'. 
Action:  Plea of covenant. 
Agreement:  William Fetyplace and Elizabeth have acknowledged the land to be the right of William Mordaunt, and have remised and quitclaimed it from themselves and the heirs of Elizabeth to John, Edith, Robert, William Mordaunt, William Gascoigne, Wistan, John and Robert and the heirs of William Mordaunt for ever. 
Warranty:  Warranty against John, abbot of St Peter, Westminster, and his successors. 
For this:  John, Edith, Robert, William Mordaunt, William Gascoigne, Wistan, John and Robert have given them 100 marks of silver. 

Mystery Monday - Where is Curry Rivel ?

Big thanks for solving this mystery goes to the Guild of One-Name folks on Rootsweb, the "go to" people.
When I found this couple Was thoroughly confused .
Whittlesford, Cambridgeshire, England 1633, Nov. 12
William Wrinch of Teversham  Sara Carrow of Teversham sp aged above 22 years 
 at St Edward 
 Surrogate: Robert King ..Curry Rivel Cambridgeshire: - Registers of Marriages, 1558-1813

Was this Cambridge or Somerset this couple lived and married in? Others on the web had been similarly puzzled. What my Guild UK folks let me know was that often Ancestry.com records are mislabeled and categorized. I now know that two distinct families of Carrows are living in  both places at the same time.

Were they connected? Are my family of single or plural origins? That is now my 2014 mystery to solve.